<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Was the temple curtain torn before, or at the moment of, Jesus&#8217; death?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.errancy.com/was-the-temple-curtain-torn-before-or-at-the-moment-of-jesus-death/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.errancy.com/was-the-temple-curtain-torn-before-or-at-the-moment-of-jesus-death/</link>
	<description>Does the Bible contain contradictions or errors? Biblical inerrancy examined.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 07 Sep 2011 04:23:00 +0200</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Errancy</title>
		<link>http://www.errancy.com/was-the-temple-curtain-torn-before-or-at-the-moment-of-jesus-death/comment-page-1/#comment-386</link>
		<dc:creator>Errancy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 10:03:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.errancy.com/?p=956#comment-386</guid>
		<description>I agree: there isn&#039;t enough chronology in the Greek for this to be as serious a problem as it first appears.

First of all, the Greek &quot;&#954;&amp;alhpa;&#964;&quot; doesn&#039;t have the same chronological implications as the English &quot;then&quot;. Instead of the explicit temporal sequence of an &quot;A, then B, then C&quot; we have the implied but defeasible temporal sequence of an &quot;A, and B, and C&quot;.

This means that Luke doesn&#039;t clearly place the tearing of the temple curtain before Jesus&#039; death, and Mark doesn&#039;t clearly place it afterwards.

Second, &quot;&amp;kai;&#945;&#953; &#953;&#948;&#959;&#965;&quot; doesn&#039;t have any chronological implications at all. It comes from &quot;&#949;&#953;&#948;&#959;&#957;&quot;, &quot;see&quot;, and is used to draw attention to something notable in a narrative.

This means that Matthew doesn&#039;t clearly place the tearing of the curtain at the same moment as Jesus&#039; death. (My guess is that the NRSV uses &quot;At that moment&quot; to try to capture the prominence that Matthew gives to the tearing of the curtain without using an archaism such as &quot;Lo!&quot; or &quot;Behold!&quot;, and that the temporal implications are accidental.)

So what was the order of events? Is it Luke that lists the events out of chronological order, or is it Matthew and Mark? I think that that we usually presume that &quot;A, and B, and C&quot; lists of events are in chronological order unless we can identify some other ordering principle that&#039;s being used (with the strength of the presumption depending on the context), so what other ordering principle might be being used? 

It looks to me as though Luke&#039;s list could well be out of chronological order, with the tearing of the curtain grouped with the other supernatural event that took place: the darkness from noon until 3pm. That would leave us able to read Matthew and Mark&#039;s accounts as listing the events in chronological order without having to see them as contradicting Luke.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree: there isn&#8217;t enough chronology in the Greek for this to be as serious a problem as it first appears.</p>
<p>First of all, the Greek &#8220;&kappa;&alhpa;&tau;&#8221; doesn&#8217;t have the same chronological implications as the English &#8220;then&#8221;. Instead of the explicit temporal sequence of an &#8220;A, then B, then C&#8221; we have the implied but defeasible temporal sequence of an &#8220;A, and B, and C&#8221;.</p>
<p>This means that Luke doesn&#8217;t clearly place the tearing of the temple curtain before Jesus&#8217; death, and Mark doesn&#8217;t clearly place it afterwards.</p>
<p>Second, &#8220;&kai;&alpha;&iota; &iota;&delta;&omicron;&upsilon;&#8221; doesn&#8217;t have any chronological implications at all. It comes from &#8220;&epsilon;&iota;&delta;&omicron;&nu;&#8221;, &#8220;see&#8221;, and is used to draw attention to something notable in a narrative.</p>
<p>This means that Matthew doesn&#8217;t clearly place the tearing of the curtain at the same moment as Jesus&#8217; death. (My guess is that the NRSV uses &#8220;At that moment&#8221; to try to capture the prominence that Matthew gives to the tearing of the curtain without using an archaism such as &#8220;Lo!&#8221; or &#8220;Behold!&#8221;, and that the temporal implications are accidental.)</p>
<p>So what was the order of events? Is it Luke that lists the events out of chronological order, or is it Matthew and Mark? I think that that we usually presume that &#8220;A, and B, and C&#8221; lists of events are in chronological order unless we can identify some other ordering principle that&#8217;s being used (with the strength of the presumption depending on the context), so what other ordering principle might be being used? </p>
<p>It looks to me as though Luke&#8217;s list could well be out of chronological order, with the tearing of the curtain grouped with the other supernatural event that took place: the darkness from noon until 3pm. That would leave us able to read Matthew and Mark&#8217;s accounts as listing the events in chronological order without having to see them as contradicting Luke.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: WisdomLover</title>
		<link>http://www.errancy.com/was-the-temple-curtain-torn-before-or-at-the-moment-of-jesus-death/comment-page-1/#comment-292</link>
		<dc:creator>WisdomLover</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 May 2009 15:04:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.errancy.com/?p=956#comment-292</guid>
		<description>In the Nestle-Aland, Luke doesn&#039;t say &quot;&lt;em&gt;And&lt;/em&gt; the curtain of the temple was torn...&lt;em&gt;Then&lt;/em&gt; Jesus, crying...&quot;. He says &quot;The curtain of the temple was torn...&lt;em&gt;and&lt;/em&gt; Jesus, crying...&quot; The initial &quot;and&quot; is absent, and the word rendered by the NRSV as &quot;then&quot;* is just &quot;and&quot; (kai). In the Byzantine and Textus Receptus, you do have that initial &quot;and&quot;, but you still have don&#039;t have &quot;then&quot; you have &quot;and&quot;.

Matthew doesn&#039;t say &quot;&lt;em&gt;At that moment&lt;/em&gt;, the curtain...&quot;. He says &quot;&lt;em&gt;And, behold&lt;/em&gt; (Kai idou), the curtain...&quot;.**

So nothing in the actual words of Scripture implies an ordering of these events. The loud cry and final breath might have occurred before, during or after the rending of the veil and all of the Gospel words would be consistent with the events.

Now, in fairness, the Gospels are telling a story with events in order. So when we see A, and B, and C, We assume A, then B, then C. But when you&#039;re listing events like this, and two events are simultaneous, one still must be listed first. Another way you could put this is that an account like this represents at best a &lt;em&gt;weak ordering&lt;/em&gt; of events. That is, &quot;A, and B, and C&quot; does not mean &quot;A &lt; B &lt; C&quot; it means &quot;A &lt;= B &lt;= C&quot;.

So, even taking the time-ordered narrative context of the Gospel words into account the most you get is that Matthew said that the loud cry and final breath occurred before &lt;em&gt;or at the same time&lt;/em&gt; as the rending of the veil, while Luke said that the rending of the veil occurred before &lt;em&gt;or at the same time&lt;/em&gt; as the loud cry and final breath.

With all of this in mind, the harmonization of the accounts is straightforward: The rending of the veil occurred at the same time as the loud cry and final breath. Matthew and Luke both report these events, separating them with the word &quot;and&quot; (kai).

---------------------
* Other renderings of &quot;kai&quot; at the beginning of Luke 23:46 --

NASB &quot;and&quot;
ESV &quot;then&quot;
KJV &quot;and&quot;
NIV &quot;.&quot;
ASV &quot;and&quot;

Literal Translations:
DBY &quot;and&quot;
YLT &quot;and&quot;

**  Only the NIV agrees with the NRSV on &quot;At that moment...&quot; for &quot;Kai idou&quot;. Every other major translation I&#039;ve checked says &quot;And, behold!&quot; or &quot;And, lo!&quot; (including the Literal translations)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the Nestle-Aland, Luke doesn&#8217;t say &#8220;<em>And</em> the curtain of the temple was torn&#8230;<em>Then</em> Jesus, crying&#8230;&#8221;. He says &#8220;The curtain of the temple was torn&#8230;<em>and</em> Jesus, crying&#8230;&#8221; The initial &#8220;and&#8221; is absent, and the word rendered by the NRSV as &#8220;then&#8221;* is just &#8220;and&#8221; (kai). In the Byzantine and Textus Receptus, you do have that initial &#8220;and&#8221;, but you still have don&#8217;t have &#8220;then&#8221; you have &#8220;and&#8221;.</p>
<p>Matthew doesn&#8217;t say &#8220;<em>At that moment</em>, the curtain&#8230;&#8221;. He says &#8220;<em>And, behold</em> (Kai idou), the curtain&#8230;&#8221;.**</p>
<p>So nothing in the actual words of Scripture implies an ordering of these events. The loud cry and final breath might have occurred before, during or after the rending of the veil and all of the Gospel words would be consistent with the events.</p>
<p>Now, in fairness, the Gospels are telling a story with events in order. So when we see A, and B, and C, We assume A, then B, then C. But when you&#8217;re listing events like this, and two events are simultaneous, one still must be listed first. Another way you could put this is that an account like this represents at best a <em>weak ordering</em> of events. That is, &#8220;A, and B, and C&#8221; does not mean &#8220;A &lt; B &lt; C&#8221; it means &#8220;A &lt;= B &lt;= C&#8221;.</p>
<p>So, even taking the time-ordered narrative context of the Gospel words into account the most you get is that Matthew said that the loud cry and final breath occurred before <em>or at the same time</em> as the rending of the veil, while Luke said that the rending of the veil occurred before <em>or at the same time</em> as the loud cry and final breath.</p>
<p>With all of this in mind, the harmonization of the accounts is straightforward: The rending of the veil occurred at the same time as the loud cry and final breath. Matthew and Luke both report these events, separating them with the word &#8220;and&#8221; (kai).</p>
<p>&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;<br />
* Other renderings of &#8220;kai&#8221; at the beginning of Luke 23:46 &#8211;</p>
<p>NASB &#8220;and&#8221;<br />
ESV &#8220;then&#8221;<br />
KJV &#8220;and&#8221;<br />
NIV &#8220;.&#8221;<br />
ASV &#8220;and&#8221;</p>
<p>Literal Translations:<br />
DBY &#8220;and&#8221;<br />
YLT &#8220;and&#8221;</p>
<p>**  Only the NIV agrees with the NRSV on &#8220;At that moment&#8230;&#8221; for &#8220;Kai idou&#8221;. Every other major translation I&#8217;ve checked says &#8220;And, behold!&#8221; or &#8220;And, lo!&#8221; (including the Literal translations)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

